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Talk:Thief Acrobat (3.5e Class)
Favor Balance so at 20th level (assuming maxed balance and +6 from dex) this class takes half damage from any attack of 50 damage or less and moves away.. and supreme evasion is hella powerful. granted by that point your pretty much gonna pass the saves anyway, but now even gods cant hit him with spells requiring ref.saves. time to go solo tiamat...--NameViolation 21:39, November 14, 2009 (UTC) :Fifty damage isn't even that much at level 20 when a wizard can hit you for 140 on average with a regular disintegrate at the same level. It's certainly not enough to help you against a god (who can, for all intents and purposes, kill you instantly without much effort). After that, Supreme Evasion sounds strong but there a countless other ways to die that do not allow a Reflex save. It's hardly overpowered for 20th level by any stretch. - TG Cid 22:50, November 14, 2009 (UTC) ::50 damage isn't too much at 20, but its still strong. no limit to times you can use it per round. If you know how to build a good character you can really abuse the hell out of that. also its shearly the fact even at lvl 20 you can roll a 1, and you fail and your equipment gets nuked. a cave lands on this class, and your fine. you fall, you automatically catch yourself (ok, thats part of the class flavor, not that bad) i think its a little overpowered. Nothing else (atleast published) comes close to that ability that i can find--NameViolation 00:14, November 15, 2009 (UTC) :::Power Slide has some abuse potential because admittedly many monsters do not do that much damage in a single attack and it removes you from threat range, but a quick glance at the monsters available for reference on site will show you dragons, a balor, a pit fiend, and the tarrasque (among the SRD). Note that dragons can fly, and although they may not have the ability to use their energy breath weapons due to supreme evasion, most can simply enter into a grapple and win by default. Even with maximum ranks in Escape Artist you might struggle to equal these creatures' grapple checks, and that doesn't help you prevent them from entering into a grapple, only from maintaining it. A tarrasque would eat/crush you for sure. I know dragons are not good examples of equivalent CR, but a mature adult (CR 18) silver dragon has a DC 27 breath weapon of paralyzing gas. Assuming level 20, a cloak of resistance +5, and some other save-boosting effect, your could still have a 50/50 shot at making that. Fail and you die. A fiend can summon another fiend and then blasphemy spam you (which allows no save) while the other(s) pick you off. CR 20 is powerful. Level 20 characters should be equally so. Reflex save-offering effects and physical damage (without some other enabling factor, such as paralysis or whatever) are not exactly the most common ways of dying, especially as the game progresses in level. Solo Tiamat? Not likely. -- Jota 05:32, November 15, 2009 (UTC) ::::soloing was a jest, but you do havea much better than average chance. you could run threw burning buildings, and always avoid volly's of arrows, and also anyone going against things with grapple at lvl 20 is foolish to not have a Freedom of movement on them. i'm not trying to cut down this class, but i always think alot of stuff is over powered when compared to published material. also 50 was a base guess. 24 ranks + take 20 from class skill + itsm + whatever dex you can really pull off can get that number to around 70. it keeps alot of stuff off you.NameViolation 06:42, November 15, 2009 (UTC) :::::We generally don't give classes credit for things they may or may not have (items) when considering their power. With UMD you can beat almost any scenario, but that doesn't mean we automatically assume you carry around any given wand and the like. But even the grappling aside, running through burning buildings is something a first level character with resist energy could do, and avoiding arrows is simply about AC, so I'm not sure what your point is there. As for the Balance check, it would be 23 ranks, 20 from check, 13 from Dex (20 base, 5 from levels, 5 from wish, 6 from item), and maybe 4 or so miscellaneous, so 60. But regardless, this still doesn't give the class the ability to beat something like a balor, which depends on spells that require Fortitude or Will saves. I guess you could make an argument that this boosts the class to wizard level, and I'm not entirely sure I'd disagree given that save or die is one of the integral parts of what defines wizard level as it is. In the absence of these effects, the thief acrobat is quite resilient, perhaps too much so. This is obviously contrary to my original thought, so I'll have to sleep on the matter before rendering a final verdict. There still is the matter of the OHKO specialist, but it is also true that most monsters don't do this. That's on the defensive side. On the flip side, if the thief acrobat cannot sneak attack it is severely limited in terms of damage output. If we assume the ring of blinking and the wands of gravestrike and golemstrike, things change rather drastically. Anyhow, like I said, I'll sleep on it. -- Jota 08:41, November 15, 2009 (UTC) ::::::Okay, so looking at the Same Game Test, it occurred to me (and has been pointed out as well) that a rogue cannot normally perform on the SGT with a competency greater than a fighter without UMD, so at the very least the presence of said skill might be enough (in conjunction with reasonably powerful class abilities) to call something rogue level. In this particular case, the thief acrobat does not deviate significantly for the rogue in the first five levels. Like I said, small benefits, but nothing that is going to dramatically alter the course of combat. The first five levels, however, are not a huge concern, as many a fighter-level class is still viable at this point. ::::::By level 10 the thief acrobat can flank with itself, which is kind of a big deal for some, but this ability really just allows the thief acrobat to do damage competently by itself; that damage still comes in the form of physical attacks and is thus quite limited of how it can be delivered. The damage output, as well, is nothing in particular to write home about. Base weapon damage +16d6 sneak attack dice averages out about 70 damage. It's not bad, but it is dependent on all attacks hitting. If you were to get half that (relatively likely), you're still not that powerful relative to the monsters listed at CR 10. You've probably got a solid chance of doing 50/50 with a fair few of them, but it will depend on getting that extra sneak attack damage and them not getting in good hits, so still rogue level. ::::::So at 15 the most notable combat addition is Power Slide, which seems to be a primary concern with its ability to negate physical damage. However, as I touched on before, physical damage is a small part of what monsters do at that CR. You've a DC 31 Fortitude save vs. Blindness, or a DC 27 Fortitude save against stun, which come as a result of physical hits, but are not something that can be avoided with Power Slide. On the other hand, some of these creatures can fly and have at will spell-like abilities that they can just rain down on you. I won't deny Power Slide's situational usefulness, but it is just that: a situational tool, not some be-all, end-all ability. I summation, I stand by my Excellent. Sorry it took so long to get around to this. -- Jota 00:58, December 4, 2009 (UTC) :::::::Interesting that Power Slide would come up. Back on The Other Wiki, someone put up a review of the T-A which started with 'Extremely Overpowered' and cited five or so class features (The Reflex stuff, flanking with itself, Shadow Tumble, the removals of penalties to certain skills), and Power Slide didn't come up once. I'm honestly puzzled as to how someone could think that the ability is overpowered or that notable. --Genowhirl 05:24, December 5, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::Not my point originally, as you can see by my justification. Anyhow, even those other things aren't a real big concern for me (I know you're not attacking them, just saying). A sneaky character should be able to do these things, and as the Tomes pointed out, it kind of sucks that you never actually get better at sneaking or hiding, assuming others put ranks in their appropriate counter skills. And I'd kind of expect the Reflex saves to be through the roof if Dexterity is being boost as the primary stat, so Supreme Evasion is nice, but like the other abilities, not that pertinent of an addition. -- Jota 05:48, December 5, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::Oh, I know. I used that myself to rebut the claims that it's extremely overpowered. I mean, it holds it own, and it lives up to the flavor of the name, but the abilities don't go nuts or make it easy to power-loop and break the game over your knee. But I own myself confounded trying to figure out why someone picks out Power Slide to point the finger at. --Genowhirl 05:53, December 5, 2009 (UTC)